Monday, November 26, 2007

Sheol, The Tribulation, and The Judgment

Below are the references to Sheol (Hell, Hades, Gehenna, the pit, the lake of fire) and also to the Tribulation.

5 For the waves of Death compassed me. The floods of Belial assailed me.
6 The cords of Sheol surrounded me; the snares of Death confronted me. (2 Samuel 22)

5 The shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof.
6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction hath no covering. (Job 26)

11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that tarry late into the night, till wine inflame them!
12 And the harp and the psaltery, the tabret and the pipe, and wine, are in their feasts; but they regard not the work of HaShem, neither have they considered the operation of His hands.
13 Therefore My people are gone into captivity, for want of knowledge; and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude are parched with thirst.
14 Therefore the nether-world hath enlarged her desire, and opened her mouth without measure; and down goeth their glory, and their tumult, and their uproar, and he that rejoiceth among them.
15 And man is bowed down, and man is humbled, and the eyes of the lofty are humbled;
16 But HaShem of hosts is exalted through justice, and G-d the Holy One is sanctified through righteousness. (Isaiah 5)

5 HaShem hath broken the staff of the wicked, the sceptre of the rulers,
6 That smote the peoples in wrath with an incessant stroke, that ruled the nations in anger, with a persecution that none restrained.
7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet; they break forth into singing.
8 Yea, the cypresses rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon: 'Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.'
9 The nether-world from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming; the shades are stirred up for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; all the kings of the nations are raised up from their thrones.
10 All they do answer and say unto thee: 'Art thou also become weak as we? Art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the nether-world, and the noise of thy psalteries; the maggot is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.'
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the nations!
13 And thou saidst in thy heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, above the stars of G-d will I exalt my throne, and I will sit upon the mount of meeting, in the uttermost parts of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High.'
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to the nether-world, to the uttermost parts of the pit. (Isaiah 14)

14 Wherefore hear the word of HaShem, ye scoffers, the ballad-mongers of this people which is in Jerusalem:
15 Because ye have said: 'We have made a covenant with death, and with the nether-world are we at agreement; when the scouring scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us; for we have made lies our refuge, and in falsehood have we hid ourselves';
16 Therefore thus saith the L-rd GOD: Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a costly corner-stone of sure foundation; he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 And I will make justice the line, and righteousness the plummet; and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding-place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled and your agreement with the nether-world shall not stand; when the scouring scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it,
19 As often as it passeth through, it shall take you; for morning by morning shall it pass through, by day and by night; and it shall be sheer terror to understand the message.
20 For the bed is too short for a man to stretch himself; and the covering too narrow when he gathereth himself up.
21 For HaShem will rise up as in mount Perazim, He will be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon; that He may do His work, strange is His work, and bring to pass His act, strange is His act.
22 Now therefore be ye not scoffers, lest your bands be made strong; for an extermination wholly determined have I heard from the L-rd, the GOD of hosts, upon the whole land. (Isaiah 28)

2 Then Jonah prayed unto HaShem his G-d out of the fish's belly.
3 And he said: I called out of mine affliction unto HaShem, and He answered me; out of the belly of the nether-world cried I, and Thou heardest my voice.
4 For Thou didst cast me into the depth, in the heart of the seas, and the flood was round about me; all Thy waves and Thy billows passed over me.
5 And I said: 'I am cast out from before Thine eyes'; yet I will look again toward Thy holy temple.
6 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul; the deep was round about me; the weeds were wrapped about my head.
7 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars closed upon me for ever; yet hast Thou brought up my life from the pit, O HaShem my G-d.
8 When my soul fainted within me, I remembered HaShem; and my prayer came in unto Thee, into Thy holy temple.
9 They that regard lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
10 But I will sacrifice unto Thee with the voice of thanksgiving; that which I have vowed I will pay. Salvation is of HaShem. (Jonah 2)

8 But HaShem is enthroned for ever; He hath established His throne for judgment.
9 And He will judge the world in righteousness, He will minister judgment to the peoples with equity. (Psalm 9)

28 Add iniquity unto their iniquity; and let them not come into Thy righteousness.
29 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.(B) (Psalm 69)

9 The way of the wicked is an abomination to HaShem; but He loveth him that followeth after righteousness.
10 There is grievous correction for him that forsaketh the way; and he that hateth reproof shall die.
11 The nether-world and Destruction are before HaShem; how much more then the hearts of the children of men! (Proverbs 15)

What did Yeshua say about Sheol?

19 There was a certain rich man who [habitually] clothed himself in purple and fine linen and reveled and feasted and made merry in splendor every day. 20 And at his gate there was [carelessly] dropped down and left a certain utterly destitute man named Lazarus, [reduced to begging alms and] covered with [ulcerated] sores.
21 He [eagerly] desired to be satisfied with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover, the dogs even came and licked his sores.
22 And it occurred that the man [reduced to] begging died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And in Hades (the realm of the dead), being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried out and said, Father Abraham, have pity and mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, child, remember that you in your lifetime fully received [what is due you in] comforts and delights, and Lazarus in like manner the discomforts and distresses; but now he is comforted here and you are in anguish.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who want to pass from this [place] to you may not be able, and no one may pass from there to us.
27 And [the man] said, Then, father, I beseech you to send him to my father's house--
28 For I have five brothers--so that he may give [solemn] testimony and warn them, lest they too come into this place of torment.
29 But Abraham said, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear and listen to them.
30 But he answered, No, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent (change their minds for the better and heartily amend their ways, with abhorrence of their past sins).
31 He said to him, If they do not hear and listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded and convinced and believe [even] if someone should rise from the dead. (Luke 16:19-31)

29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 Saying, If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have aided them in shedding the blood of the prophets.
31 Thus you are testifying against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' sins to the brim [so [k]that nothing may be wanting to a full measure].
33 You serpents! You spawn of vipers! How can you escape the [l]penalty to be suffered in hell (Gehenna)?
34 Because of this, take notice: I am sending you prophets and wise men (interpreters and teachers) and scribes (men learned in the Mosaic Law and the Prophets); some of them you will kill, even crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue and persecute from town to town,
35 So that upon your heads may come all the blood of the righteous ([m]those who correspond to the divine standard of right) shed on earth, from the blood of the righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar [of burnt offering].(E)
36 Truly I declare to you, all these [[n]evil, calamitous times] will come upon this generation. [II Chron. 36:15, 16.]
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, murdering the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a mother fowl gathers her brood under her wings, and you refused!
38 Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate (abandoned and left destitute of God's help). [I Kings 9:7; Jer. 22:5.]
39 For I declare to you, you will not see Me again until you say, Blessed (magnified in worship, adored, and exalted) is He Who comes in the name of the Lord!(F) (Matthew 23:29-39) 4 I tell you, My friends, do not dread and be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have nothing more that they can do. 5 But I will warn you whom you should fear: fear Him Who, after killing, has power to hurl into hell (Gehenna); yes, I say to you, fear Him! [Proverbs 15:11] (Luke 12:4-5)

Here are some excerpts from the book of Revelation regarding the Tribulation and the final disposition of the those whose names are not found in the Book of Life. But to better understand the Tribulation, you must read Daniel's prophecy about the end time and then entire book of Revelation. In Revelation 7, the twelve tribes of Israel are named and these are only Jews who have been circumcised in their flesh and in their hearts and who are marked in their foreheads in accordance with Ezekiel 9. But the "vast host" (a.k.a. "great multitude") in Revelation 7 are both righteous Jews and Gentiles.

Revelation 1
1 [THIS IS] the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries]. God gave it to Him to disclose and make known to His bond servants certain things which must shortly and speedily come to pass [a]in their entirety. And He sent and communicated it through His angel (messenger) to His bond servant John, 2 Who has testified to and vouched for all that he saw [[b]in his visions], the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed (happy, [c]to be envied) is the man who reads aloud [in the assemblies] the word of this prophecy; and blessed (happy, [d]to be envied) are those who hear [it read] and who keep themselves true to the things which are written in it [heeding them and laying them to heart], for the time [for them to be fulfilled] is near.
4 John to the seven assemblies (congregations) that are in Asia: May grace (God's unmerited favor) be granted to you and spiritual peace ([e]the peace of Christ's kingdom) from Him Who is and Who was and Who is to come, and from the seven Spirits [[f]the sevenfold Holy Spirit] before His throne,(A)
5 And from Jesus Christ the faithful and trustworthy Witness, the Firstborn of the dead [first to be brought back to life] and the Prince (Ruler) of the kings of the earth. To Him Who [g]ever loves us and has [h]once [for all] loosed and freed us from our sins by His own blood,(B)
6 And formed us into a kingdom (a royal race), priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the power and the majesty and the dominion throughout the ages and forever and ever. Amen (so be it).(C)
7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth shall gaze upon Him and beat their breasts and mourn and lament over Him. Even so [must it be]. Amen (so be it).(D)
8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, says the Lord God, He Who is and Who was and Who is to come, the Almighty (the Ruler of all).(E)
9 I, John, your brother and companion (sharer and participator) with you in the tribulation and kingdom and patient endurance [which are] in Jesus Christ, was on the isle called Patmos, [banished] on account of [my witnessing to] the Word of God and the testimony (the proof, the evidence) for Jesus Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit [rapt in His power] on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a great voice like the calling of a [i]war trumpet,
11 Saying, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last. Write promptly what you see (your vision) in a book and send it to the seven [congregations] which are in Asia--to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.
12 Then I turned to see [whose was] the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 And in the midst of the lampstands [One] like a Son of Man, clothed with a robe which reached to His feet and with a girdle of gold about His breast.(F)
14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, [as white] as snow, and His eyes [flashed] like a flame of fire.(G)
15 His feet glowed like burnished (bright) bronze as it is refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters.(H)
16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and from His mouth there came forth a sharp two-edged sword, and His face was like the sun shining in full power at midday.(I)
17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet as if dead. But He laid His right hand on me and said, Do not be afraid! I am the First and the Last,(J)
18 And the Ever-living One [I am living in the eternity of the eternities]. I died, but see, I am alive forevermore; and I possess the keys of death and Hades (the realm of the dead).
19 Write therefore the things you see, what they are [and signify] and what is to take place hereafter.
20 As to the hidden meaning (the mystery) of the seven stars which you saw on My right hand and the seven lampstands of gold: the seven stars are the seven angels (messengers) of the seven assemblies (congregations) and the seven lampstands are the seven [congregations].

Revelation 5
1 AND I saw lying on the [a]open hand of Him Who was seated on the throne a scroll (book) written within and on the back, closed and sealed with seven seals;(A) 2 And I saw a strong angel announcing in a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the scroll? And [who is entitled and deserves and is morally fit] to break its seals?
3 And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth [in the realm of the dead, Hades] was able to open the scroll or to take a [single] look at its contents.
4 And I wept audibly and bitterly because no one was found fit to open the scroll or to inspect it.
5 Then one of the elders [[b]of the heavenly Sanhedrin] said to me, Stop weeping! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root (Source) of David, has won (has overcome and conquered)! He can open the scroll and break its seven seals!(B)
6 And there between the throne and the four living creatures (beings) and among the elders [[c]of the heavenly Sanhedrin] I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God [[d]the sevenfold Holy Spirit] Who have been sent [on duty far and wide] into all the earth.(C)
7 He then went and took the scroll from the right hand of Him Who sat on the throne.
8 And when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders [[e]of the heavenly Sanhedrin] prostrated themselves before the Lamb. Each was holding a harp (lute or guitar), and they had golden bowls full of incense (fragrant spices and gums for burning), which are the prayers of God's people (the saints).
9 And [now] they sing a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll and to break the seals that are on it, for You were slain (sacrificed), and with Your blood You purchased men unto God from every tribe and language and people and nation.(D)
10 And You have made them a kingdom (royal race) and priests to our God, and they shall reign [as kings] over the earth!(E)
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels on every side of the throne and of the living creatures and the elders [[f]of the heavenly Sanhedrin], and they numbered ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands,(F)
12 Saying in a loud voice, Deserving is the Lamb, Who was sacrificed, to receive all the power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and majesty (glory, splendor) and blessing!
13 And I heard every created thing in heaven and on earth and under the earth [in Hades, the place of departed spirits] and on the sea and all that is in it, crying out together, To Him Who is seated on the throne and to the Lamb be ascribed the blessing and the honor and the majesty (glory, splendor) and the power (might and dominion) forever and ever (through the eternities of the eternities)!(G)
14 Then the four living creatures (beings) said, Amen (so be it)! And the elders [[g]of the heavenly Sanhedrin] prostrated themselves and worshiped Him Who lives forever and ever.

Revelation 7
1 AFTER THIS I saw four angels stationed at the four corners of the earth, [a]firmly holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind should blow on the earth or sea or upon any tree.(A) 2 Then I saw a second angel coming up from the east (the rising of the sun) and carrying the seal of the living God. And with a loud voice he called out to the four angels who had been given authority and power to injure earth and sea,
3 Saying, Harm neither the earth nor the sea nor the trees, until we have sealed the bond servants of our God upon their foreheads.(B)
4 And [then] I heard how many were sealed (marked) out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: there were 144,000.
5 Twelve thousand were sealed (marked) out of the tribe of Judah, 12,000 of the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 of the tribe of Gad,
6 Twelve thousand of the tribe of Asher, 12,000 of the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 of the tribe of Manasseh,
7 Twelve thousand of the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 of the tribe of Levi, 12,000 of the tribe of Issachar,
8 Twelve thousand of the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 of the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 of the tribe of Benjamin.
9 After this I looked and a vast host appeared which no one could count, [gathered out] of every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages. These stood before the throne and before the Lamb; they were attired in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.
10 In loud voice they cried, saying, [Our] salvation is due to our God, Who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb [to Them we owe our deliverance]!
11 And all the angels were standing round the throne and round the elders [[b]of the heavenly Sanhedrin] and the four living creatures, and they fell prostrate before the throne and worshiped God.
12 Amen! (So be it!) they cried. Blessing and glory and majesty and splendor and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and might [be ascribed] to our God to the ages and ages (forever and ever, throughout the eternities of the eternities)! Amen! (So be it!)
13 Then, addressing me, one of the elders [[c]of the heavenly Sanhedrin] said, Who are these [people] clothed in the long white robes? And from where have they come?
14 I replied, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they who have come out of the great tribulation (persecution), and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.(C)
15 For this reason they are [now] before the [very] throne of God and serve Him day and night in His sanctuary (temple); and He Who is sitting upon the throne will protect and spread His tabernacle over and shelter them with His presence.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun smite them, nor any [d]scorching heat.(D)
17 For the Lamb Who is in the midst of the throne will be their Shepherd, and He will guide them to the springs of the waters of life; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.(E)

Revelation 19
1 AFTER THIS I heard what sounded like a mighty shout of a great crowd in heaven, exclaiming, Hallelujah (praise the Lord)! Salvation and glory (splendor and majesty) and power (dominion and authority) [belong] to our God! 2 Because His judgments (His condemnation and punishment, His sentences of doom) are true and sound and just and upright. He has judged (convicted, pronounced sentence, and doomed) the great and notorious harlot (idolatress) who corrupted and demoralized and poisoned the earth with her lewdness and adultery (idolatry). And He has avenged (visited on her the penalty for) the blood of His servants at her hand.(A)
3 And again they shouted, Hallelujah (praise the Lord)! The smoke of her [burning] shall continue to ascend forever and ever (through the eternities of the eternities).(B)
4 Then the twenty-four elders [of [a]the heavenly Sanhedrin] and the four living creatures fell prostrate and worshiped [paying divine honors to] God, Who sits on the throne, saying, Amen! Hallelujah (praise the Lord)!
5 Then from the throne there came a voice, saying, Praise our God, all you servants of His, you who reverence Him, both small and great!(C)
6 After that I heard what sounded like the shout of a vast throng, like the boom of many pounding waves, and like the roar of terrific and mighty peals of thunder, exclaiming, Hallelujah (praise the Lord)! For now the Lord our God the Omnipotent (the All-Ruler) reigns!
7 Let us rejoice and shout for joy [exulting and triumphant]! Let us celebrate and ascribe to Him glory and honor, for the marriage of the Lamb [at last] has come, and His bride has prepared herself.(D)
8 She has been permitted to dress in fine (radiant) linen, dazzling and white--for the fine linen is (signifies, represents) the righteousness (the upright, just, and godly living, deeds, and conduct, and right standing with God) of the saints (God's holy people).
9 Then [the angel] said to me, Write this down: Blessed (happy, [b]to be envied) are those who are summoned (invited, called) to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he said to me [further], These are the true words (the genuine and exact declarations) of God.
10 Then I fell prostrate at his feet to worship (to pay divine honors) to him, but he [restrained me] and said, Refrain! [You must not do that!] I am [only] another servant with you and your brethren who have [accepted and hold] the testimony borne by Jesus. Worship God! For the substance (essence) of the truth revealed by Jesus is the spirit of all prophecy [the vital breath, the inspiration of all inspired preaching and interpretation of the divine will and purpose, including both mine and yours].
11 After that I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse [appeared]! The One Who was riding it is called Faithful (Trustworthy, Loyal, Incorruptible, Steady) and True, and He passes judgment and wages war in righteousness (holiness, justice, and uprightness).(E)
12 His eyes [blaze] like a flame of fire, and on His head are many kingly crowns (diadems); and He has a title (name) inscribed which He alone knows or can understand.(F)
13 He is dressed in a robe dyed by [c]dipping in blood, and the title by which He is called is The Word of God.
14 And the troops of heaven, clothed in fine linen, dazzling and clean, followed Him on white horses.
15 From His mouth goes forth a sharp sword with which He can smite (afflict, strike) the nations; and He will shepherd and control them with a staff (scepter, rod) of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath and indignation of God the All-Ruler (the Almighty, the Omnipotent).(G)
16 And on His garment (robe) and on His thigh He has a name (title) inscribed, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.(H)
17 Then I saw a single angel stationed in the sun's [d]light, and with a mighty voice he shouted to all the birds that fly across the sky, Come, gather yourselves together for the great supper of God,(I)
18 That you may feast on the flesh of rulers, the flesh of generals and captains, the flesh of powerful and mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all humanity, both free and slave, both small and great!
19 Then I saw the beast and the rulers and leaders of the earth with their troops mustered to go into battle and make war against Him Who is mounted on the horse and against His troops.
20 And the beast was seized and overpowered, and with him the false prophet who in his presence had worked wonders and performed miracles by which he led astray those who had accepted or permitted to be placed upon them the stamp (mark) of the beast and those who paid homage and gave divine honors to his statue. Both of them were hurled alive into the fiery lake that burns and blazes with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword that issues from the mouth of Him Who is mounted on the horse, and all the birds fed ravenously and glutted themselves with their flesh.

Revelation 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and the One Who was seated upon it, from Whose presence and from the sight of Whose face earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 I [also] saw the dead, great and small; they stood before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged (sentenced) by what they had done [[b]their whole way of feeling and acting, their aims and endeavors] in accordance with what was recorded in the books.
13 And the sea delivered up the dead who were in it, death and Hades ([c]the state of death or disembodied existence) surrendered the dead in them, and all were tried and their cases determined by what they had done [according to their motives, aims, and works].
14 Then death and Hades ([d]the state of death or disembodied existence) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's [name] was not found recorded in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire. BK,You know I am not your judge, nor am I anyone else's judge. There is only one Judge regarding the final disposition of each man and woman according to His righteousness and justice. Remember, G-d's throne is founded upon righteousness and justice! I do believe all those who have not obeyed G-d will go to an eternal place called Hell (Sheol, Hades, Gehenna)! Yes, G-d Himself will send the disobidient to Sheol for eternal destruction, and that doesn't mean "lights out forever", it means conscience suffering. Dear BK, because I believe Yeshua is the Messiah who is and who was and who is to come, I do believe all that He said concerning His first and second Messianic missions on earth, and I believe all that He said about eternal life - I believe what He had to say about one's eternal life that is either spent worshipping G-d or is spent in Hell (Sheol, Hades, Gehenna) along with Satan and the angels that fell with him (the book of Revelation speaks very vividly about Satan's judgment and the judgment of those whose names are not found in the Book of Life).


Bar Kochba said...

I took a look at your quotes from the Jewish Bible but they don't add up to much. The Torah is strangely silent about the afterlife and does not contain any explicit descriptions of it, in contrast to the Christian Bible or the Qur'an for example. This is because Judaism is a religion of life and while we believe fundamentally in reward and punishment annd the World to Come, we focus on this world and leave the next up to G-d. Leviticus 18:5,“And you shall therefore keep my statutes and laws which, if a person does, you shall live by them.”

Sheol means pain and suffering and is sometimes used to refer to what is known as Hell but the Christian translators of the Bible translated Gehenom as the pagan Hades.

The idea of eternal damnation seems so ridiculous and evil that it is beyond the All-Kind G-d. If we have sinned against G-d, what pleasure would He gain by having us suffer in rivers of fire forever? Judaism holds that people, after their deaths, all of us are sent to Gehennom for a certain amount of time (only the most wicked exceed 11 months- that is why Kaddish is recited for 11 months) for our own benefit to clean up our sins. If we have sinned and blemished our soul then we cannot fully appreciate the immense divine light in Gan Eden. Therefore, we are sent to Gehennom which is better translated as Purgatory, to make ammends to our sins and to eventually get into Gan Eden. Why would the Merciful G-d be interested in revenge, in cruely keeping somebody who was misguided, tortured for all of eternity in hell? G-d is above pettiness!

But I do ask you: Based on Rom. 10.9, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved", something that I will never, ever, do on penalty of death like my ancestors, will I be condemned to hell forever even if I keep G-d's Torah. You don't have to equivocate and I won't be offended by the answer. Are all non-Christians damned to hell forever? When Adolf Eichmann, may his name be accursed, was about to be executed, he was allowed to confess to a Canadian pastor. After speaking with him, the pastor said that Eichmann had accepted JC and therefore was forgiven and would go to heaven. When asked about his victims, he said that the 6 million did not accept JC and were therefore condmened to hell. Isn't that sick and perverted conclusion the logical outcome of this misguided belief?

Just remember before you tell me to get acquainted with h guy with horns and a pitchfork the words of the Prophet Isaiah. "All your nation is righteous; they will inherit the earth eternally; the shoot that I have planted, the work of My hands, something to be proud of" (Isaiah 60:21). And it says, "Open the gates, so that the righteous nation that keeps the faith may enter" (Isaiah 26:2).

G-d bless!

Deborah said...


Where in the Tanakh, not Talmud, is there evidence to support a "purgatory"? To postulate that there's a purgatory, one has to extrapolate and synthesize that position as it departs from the obvious. Personally, I don't place my eternal destination on the teaching of men, I place myself squarely under the Scriptures found in both the Tanakh and the B'rit Chadashah.

I am not G-d, therefore, I cannot say with certainty where Adolf Eichmann is in eternity. But my guess is that he lacked sincerity and he merely followed the teaching of the church, which allowed him to feel as if some kind of "death bed" confession might help him cross into purgatory or the Kingdom of G-d. However, the G-d of Israel, by His very essence, demands justice!!!!!! If Eichmann was merely following tradition, then the G-d of righteousness and justice didn't allow Eichmann into the Kingdom of G-d let alone purgatory! If I understand you correctly, regardless of Eichmann's deathbed confession, at some point, if he's a good boy in purgatory, he gets a "Get Out of Jail Free" card. I definitely reject that idea as I can't find it in the Bible.

You asked me if you will be condemned to hell forever even if you keep G-d's Torah, I needn't answer that question in my words, but Shaul (Paul), Yeshua, and Yohanan (John) will answer you in theirs and then you take it from there:

1 WHAT advantage remains to the Jew? [How is he favored?] Or what is the value or benefit of circumcision?
2 Much in every way. To begin with, to the Jews were entrusted the oracles (the brief communications, the intentions, the utterances) of God.
3 What if some did not believe and were without faith? Does their lack of faith and their faithlessness nullify and make ineffective and void the faithfulness of God and His fidelity [to His Word]?

4 By no means! Let God be found true though every human being is false and a liar, as it is written, That You may be justified and shown to be upright in what You say, and prevail when You are judged [by sinful men].

5 But if our unrighteousness thus establishes and exhibits the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust and wrong to inflict His wrath upon us [Jews]? I speak in a [purely] human way.

6 By no means! Otherwise, how could God judge the world?

7 But [you say] if through my falsehood God's integrity is magnified and advertised and abounds to His glory, why am I still being judged as a sinner?

8 And why should we not do evil that good may come?--as some slanderously charge us with teaching. Such [false teaching] is justly condemned by them.

9 Well then, are we [Jews] superior and better off than they? No, not at all. We have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks (Gentiles), are under sin [held down by and subject to its power and control].

10 As it is written, None is righteous, just and truthful and upright and conscientious, no, not one.

11 No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.

12 All have turned aside; together they have gone wrong and have become unprofitable and worthless; no one does right, not even one!

13 Their throat is a yawning grave; they use their tongues to deceive (to mislead and to deal treacherously). The venom of asps is beneath their lips.

14 Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood.

16 Destruction [as it dashes them to pieces] and misery mark their ways.

17 And they have no experience of the way of peace [they know nothing about peace, for a peaceful way they do not even recognize].

18 There is no [reverential] fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that [the murmurs and excuses of] every mouth may be hushed and all the world may be held accountable to God.

20 For no person will be justified (made righteous, acquitted, and judged acceptable) in His sight by observing the works prescribed by the Law. For [the real function of] the Law is to make men recognize and be conscious of sin [not mere perception, but an acquaintance with sin which works toward repentance, faith, and holy character].

21 But now the righteousness of God has been revealed independently and altogether apart from the Law, although actually it is attested by the Law and the Prophets,

22 Namely, the righteousness of God which comes by believing with personal trust and confident reliance on Jesus the Messiah. [And it is meant] for all who believe. For there is no distinction,

23 Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives.

24 [All] are justified and made upright and in right standing with God, freely and gratuitously by His grace (His unmerited favor and mercy), through the redemption which is [provided] in Messiah Jesus,

25 Whom God put forward [before the eyes of all] as a mercy seat and propitiation by His blood [the cleansing and life-giving sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation, to be received] through faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over and ignored former sins without punishment.

26 It was to demonstrate and prove at the present time (in the now season) that He Himself is righteous and that He justifies and accepts as righteous him who has [true] faith in Jesus.

27 Then what becomes of [our] pride and [our] boasting? It is excluded (banished, ruled out entirely). On what principle? [On the principle] of doing good deeds? No, but on the principle of faith.

28 For we hold that a man is justified and made upright by faith independent of and distinctly apart from good deeds (works of the Law). [The observance of the Law has nothing to do with justification.] (Romans 3:1-28)

1 FOR SINCE the Law has merely a outline (foreshadowing) of the good things to come--instead of fully expressing those things--it can never by offering the same sacrifices continually year after year make perfect those who approach [its altars].
2 For if it were otherwise, would [these sacrifices] not have stopped being offered? Since the worshipers had once for all been cleansed, they would no longer have any guilt or consciousness of sin.

3 But [as it is] these sacrifices annually bring a fresh remembrance of sins [to be atoned for],

4 Because the blood of bulls and goats is powerless to take sins away.

5 Hence, when He [Messiah] entered into the world, He said, Sacrifices and offerings You have not desired, but instead You have made ready a body for Me [to offer];
6 In burnt offerings and sin offerings You have taken no delight.

7 Then I said, Behold, here I am, coming to do Your will, O God--[to fulfill] what is written of Me in the volume of the Book.

8 When He said just before, You have neither desired, nor have You taken delight in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings--all of which are offered according to the Law--
9 He then went on to say, Behold, [here] I am, coming to do Your will. Thus He does away with and annuls the first (former) order [as a means of expiating sin] so that He might inaugurate and establish the second (latter) order.

10 And in accordance with this will [of God], we have been made holy (consecrated and sanctified) through the offering made once for all of the body of Jesus the Messiah (the Anointed One).

11 Furthermore, every [human] priest stands [at his altar of service] ministering daily, offering the same sacrifices over and over again, which never are able to strip [from every side of us] the sins [that envelop us] and take them away--

12 Whereas this One [Messiah], after He had offered a single sacrifice for our sins [that shall avail] for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

13 Then to wait until His enemies should be made a stool beneath His feet.

14 For by a single offering He has forever completely cleansed and perfected those who are consecrated and made holy.

15 And also the Holy Spirit adds His testimony to us [in confirmation of this]. For having said,

16 This is the agreement (testament, covenant) that I will set up and conclude with them after those days, says the Lord: I will imprint My laws upon their hearts, and I will inscribe them on their minds (on their inmost thoughts and understanding),
17 He then goes on to say, And their sins and their lawbreaking I will remember no more.

18 Now where there is absolute remission (forgiveness and cancellation of the penalty) of these [sins and lawbreaking], there is no longer any offering made to atone for sin.

19 Therefore, brethren, since we have full freedom and confidence to enter into the [Holy of] Holies [by the power and virtue] in the blood of Jesus,

20 By this fresh (new) and living way which He initiated and dedicated and opened for us through the separating curtain (veil of the Holy of Holies), that is, through His flesh,

21 And since we have [such] a great and wonderful and noble Priest [Who rules] over the house of God,

22 Let us all come forward and draw near with true (honest and sincere) hearts in unqualified assurance and absolute conviction engendered by faith (by that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness), having our hearts sprinkled and purified from a guilty (evil) conscience and our bodies cleansed with pure water.

23 So let us seize and hold fast and retain without wavering the hope we cherish and confess and our acknowledgement of it, for He Who promised is reliable (sure) and faithful to His word.

24 And let us consider and give attentive, continuous care to watching over one another, studying how we may stir up (stimulate and incite) to love and helpful deeds and noble activities,

25 Not forsaking or neglecting to assemble together [as believers], as is the habit of some people, but admonishing (warning, urging, and encouraging) one another, and all the more faithfully as you see the day approaching.

26 For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward].

27 [There is nothing left for us then] but a kind of awful and fearful prospect and expectation of divine judgment and the fury of burning wrath and indignation which will consume those who put themselves in opposition [to God].

28 Any person who has violated and [thus] rejected and set at naught the Law of Moses is put to death without pity or mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

29 How much worse (sterner and heavier) punishment do you suppose he will be judged to deserve who has spurned and [thus] trampled underfoot the Son of God, and who has considered the covenant blood by which he was consecrated common and unhallowed, thus profaning it and insulting and outraging the [Holy] Spirit [Who imparts] grace (the unmerited favor and blessing of God)?

30 For we know Him Who said, Vengeance is Mine [retribution and the meting out of full justice rest with Me]; I will repay [I will exact the compensation], says the Lord. And again, The Lord will judge and determine and solve and settle the cause and the cases of His people.

31 It is a fearful (formidable and terrible) thing to incur the divine penalties and be cast into the hands of the living God! (Hebrews 10:1-31)

23 And someone asked Him, Lord, will only a few be saved (rescued, delivered from the penalties of the last judgment, and made partakers of the salvation by [Messiah])? And He said to them,
24 Strive to enter by the narrow door [force yourselves through it], for many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able.

25 When once the Master of the house gets up and closes the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door [again and again], saying, Lord, open to us! He will answer you, I do not know where [what household--certainly not Mine] you come from.

26 Then you will begin to say, We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.

27 But He will say, I tell you, I do not know where [what household--certainly not Mine] you come from; depart from Me, all you wrongdoers!

28 There will be weeping and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves being cast forth (banished, driven away).

29 And [people] will come from east and west, and from north and south, and sit down (feast at table) in the kingdom of God. (Luke 13:23-29)

37 For what can a man give as an exchange (a compensation, a ransom, in return) for his [blessed] life [in the eternal kingdom of God]?

38 For whoever is ashamed [here and now] of Me and My words in this adulterous (unfaithful) and [preeminently] sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when He comes in the glory (splendor and majesty) of His Father with the holy angels. (Mark 8:37-38)

13 Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and spacious and broad is the way that leads away to destruction, and many are those who are entering through it.
14 But the gate is narrow (contracted by pressure) and the way is straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those who find it. (Matthew 7:13-14)

1 DO NOT let your hearts be troubled (distressed, agitated). You believe in and adhere to and trust in and rely on God; believe in and adhere to and trust in and rely also on Me.
2 In My Father's house there are many dwelling places (homes). If it were not so, I would have told you; for I am going away to prepare a place for you.

3 And when (if) I go and make ready a place for you, I will come back again and will take you to Myself, that where I am you may be also.

4 And [to the place] where I am going, you know the way.

5 Thomas said to Him, Lord, we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?

6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me. (John 14:1-6)

1 NOW THERE was a certain man among the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler (a leader, an authority) among the Jews,
2 Who came to Jesus at night and said to Him, Rabbi, we know and are certain that You have come from God [as] a Teacher; for no one can do these signs (these wonderworks, these miracles--and produce the proofs) that You do unless God is with him.

3 Jesus answered him, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, that unless a person is born again (anew, from above), he cannot ever see (know, be acquainted with, and experience) the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter his mother's womb again and be born?

5 Jesus answered, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, unless a man is born of water and [even] the Spirit, he cannot [ever] enter the kingdom of God.

6 What is born of [from] the flesh is flesh [of the physical is physical]; and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not [do not be surprised, astonished] at My telling you, You must all be born anew (from above).

8 The wind blows (breathes) where it wills; and though you hear its sound, yet you neither know where it comes from nor where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered by asking, How can all this be possible?

10 Jesus replied, Are you the teacher of Israel, and yet do not know nor understand these things? [Are they strange to you?]

11 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, We speak only of what we know [we know absolutely what we are talking about]; we have actually seen what we are testifying to [we were eyewitnesses of it]. And still you do not receive our testimony [you reject and refuse our evidence--that of Myself and of all those who are born of the Spirit].

12 If I have told you of things that happen right here on the earth and yet none of you believes Me, how can you believe (trust Me, adhere to Me, rely on Me) if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And yet no one has ever gone up to heaven, but there is One Who has come down from heaven--the Son of Man [Himself], Who is (dwells, has His home) in heaven.

14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert [on a pole], so must [so it is necessary that] the Son of Man be lifted up [on the cross],

15 In order that everyone who believes in Him [who cleaves to Him, trusts Him, and relies on Him] may not perish, but have eternal life and [actually] live forever!

16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

17 For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him.

18 He who believes in Him [who clings to, trusts in, relies on Him] is not judged [he who trusts in Him never comes up for judgment; for him there is no rejection, no condemnation--he incurs no damnation]; but he who does not believe (cleave to, rely on, trust in Him) is judged already [he has already been convicted and has already received his sentence] because he has not believed in and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [He is condemned for refusing to let his trust rest in Messiah's name.]

19 The [basis of the] judgment (indictment, the test by which men are judged, the ground for the sentence) lies in this: the Light has come into the world, and people have loved the darkness rather than and more than the Light, for their works (deeds) were evil.

20 For every wrongdoer hates (loathes, detests) the Light, and will not come out into the Light but shrinks from it, lest his works (his deeds, his activities, his conduct) be exposed and reproved.

21 But he who practices truth [who does what is right] comes out into the Light; so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are--wrought with God [divinely prompted, done with God's help, in dependence upon Him]. (John 3:1-21)

9 If we accept [as we do] the testimony of men [if we are willing to take human authority], the testimony of God is greater (of stronger authority), for this is the testimony of God, even the witness which He has borne regarding His Son.
10 He who believes in the Son of God [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Him] has the testimony [possesses this divine attestation] within himself. He who does not believe God [in this way] has made Him out to be and represented Him as a liar, because he has not believed (put his faith in, adhered to, and relied on) the evidence (the testimony) that God has borne regarding His Son.

11 And this is that testimony (that evidence): God gave us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. (1 John 5:9-11)

According to these Scriptures, what has happened, and happens, what happens to us at the time of death? And as a side note, The B'rit Chadashah tells us that Abraham and all righteous Jews were taken from "Abraham's Bosom" when the Messiah resurrected and were allowed to enter into everlasting Shabbat, in G-d's heavenly Kingdom (that is yet to come to earth after Messiah's return).

Bar Kochba said...

Where in the Tanakh is there any explicit evidence of an afterlife at all? It never ceases to amaze me how Christians have the chutzpah to worship a man who claimed to be G-d, follow books written by his followers, without a shred of their prophet's own writings (if he even existed), a god whose divinity was decided by a vote at Nicea, and tell the Jews that they follow the teachings of man! Christians base their eternity on the untrustworthy testimonies of a men who wrote the Gospels and later attributed them to Biblical characters, which accounts for its distortions, contradictions and discrepancies. I've had this debate about a hundred times and have had to explain over and over again the authority of the rabbis and how the Oral Law is necessary to understand the Torah. I don't have the patience to go over this so I will leave you with just a few questions:
1) Based on Deuteronomy 6:8, how should we bind these words on our arms and how should they be a sign between our eyes?
2) Based on Numbers 13:38, how does one make fringes? What is this blue thread? Where are they placed? What are fringes anyways?

(You seem to be very keen on following only what the Torah says but when does the Torah explicitly talk about Yeishu? I've never been answered but if our eternal salvation depends solely on accepting Yoshkele, and G-d knew that eventually He would send His son down to earth, why doesn't the Torah speak about this essential concept explicitly?)

I can't tell you how G-d rules the world but I can say that eternal damnation is contradictory to the idea of a kind G-d. Purgatory applies only to the average person, the wicked souls are extinguished eventually. But where does the Bible, the REAL Jewish Bible, ever speak about eternal damnation? But you still did not answer- if Eichmann, may his name be accursed, sincerely accepted JC, would he get salvation? And what about the 6 million who did not accept him?

"For no person will be justified (made righteous, acquitted, and judged acceptable) in His sight by observing the works prescribed by the Law."

The Torah and Prophets repeatdely exhort the Children of Israel to keep the entire Torah and only by living by G-d's commandments can we be righteous. The Jewish nation was only chosen of our observance of the Torah.

“For I have chosen him in order that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the L-rd by doing righteousness and justice, in order that the L-rd may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him." (Genesis 18:19)

“And in your seed all the nations of earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” (Genesis 22:18)

“And I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.” (Genesis 26:4-5)

“And you shall therefore keep my statutes and laws which, if a person does, you shall live by them.” (Leviticus 18:5)

“And it will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the L-rd our G-d, just as He commanded us.” (Deuteronomy 6:25)

“Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the people, for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel …” (Exodus 19:5-6)

“See, I have taught you statutes and judgments just as the L-rd my G-d commanded me, that you should do this in the land where you are entering to possess it. So, keep
and do them, for they are your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes and say: ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. For what great nation is there that has a G-d so near to it as is the L-rd our G-d whenever we call on Him? Or what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments as righteous as this whole Torah which I am setting before you today?"
(Deuteronomy 4:5-8)

“Know, therefore that the L-rd your G-d, He is G-d, the faithful G-d, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments. You shall therefore keep the commandments and the statutes, and the judgments which I command you this day to do them. And, it shall come to pass, if you hearken to these judgments and keep them and do them, then the L-rd your G-d shall keep to you the covenant and the mercy which He swore to your fathers. (Deut. 7:9, 11-12 see also Daniel 9:4)

“This day the L-rd your G-d has commanded you to do these statutes and judgments; you shall therefore keep and do them with all your heart; and with all your soul. You
have avouched the L-rd this day to be your G-d, and to walk in His ways, and to keep
His statutes, and His commandments, and His judgments, and to hearken to His voice. And the L-rd has avouched to you this day to be His peculiar people, as He has promised You, and that you should keep all of His commandments. And to make you high above the nations which He has made, in praise and in name, and in honor; and that you may be a holy people unto the L-rd your G-d, as He has spoken." (Deut.26:16-19)

“And it shall come to pass, if you will hearken diligently to the voice of the L-rd your G-d, to observe and to do all His commandments which I command you this day, then the L-rd your G-d will set you high above all the nations of the earth. The L-rd your G-d will establish you as a holy people to Himself, as He swore to you, if you will keep the commandments of the L-rd your G-d, and walk in His ways.” (Deut. 28:1,9)

“But the mercy of the L-rd is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear Him and His righteousness to children's children. To such as keep His covenant, and to those that remember His commandments to do them.” (Psalms 103:17-18)

“But this is what I commanded them, saying: ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your G-d, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command You, that it may be well with you.” (Jeremiah 7:23)

“And keep the charge of the L-rd your G-d, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, and His commandments, and His judgments, and His testimonies, as it is written in the Torah (Law) of Moses, that you may prosper in all that you do, and wherever you turn your- self. (I Kings 2:3)

“Then You did come down on Mt. Sinai and did speak with them from heaven; You did give to them just ordinances and laws, good statutes and commandments.” (Nehemiah 9:13)

“I have not departed from the command of His lips; I have treasured the words of His mouth more than my necessary food.” (Job 23:12 )

“How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, nor stand in the path of sinners, nor sit in the seat of scoffers. But his delight is in the Law of the L-rd, and in His Law he meditates day and night.” (Psalms 1:1-2. See also Psalms 25:10, 103:17-18, 112:1-4)

You also say speak about Lucifer ruling Hell. It is idolatry to think that there is an opposing power to G-d which fights against Him. This goes back to the dualistic Zoroastrian belief of the ternal battle between the of good and the god of evil. "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7) G-d controls everything and there is no "Devil" to oppose Him or stand in His way.

Bar Kochba said...

I forgot this extremely important verse:

“The conclusion, when all has been considered is: Fear G-d and keep His commandments, because this is the totality of mankind! ( Eccl. 12:13 )

Deborah said...


First of all, the Nicene Council was formed by Constantine and for the sake of his agenda in retaining political power over a people that included the growing Christian population. He supposedly converted from his pagan religion to Christianity after seeing a vision of three crosses (oh, please!). Based on the outcome of his decisions, it's obvious that he needed to maintain his platform of power. He maneuvered and manipulated Christians away from the Hebraic elements within the exercise of their faith and integrated pagan beliefs to keep the majority happy. Being a smart politician in combination with naive, complacent subjects, who only paid lip service to G-d, helped him achieve his objective. (Ooo, sounds like Olmert and the majority of secular Israelies...)

Secondly, the B'rit Chadashah is full of references to the writings of the prophets! And I have yet to answer you regarding the historical existence of Yeshua - I'll get back to our primary debate.

In answer to your questions regarding:

1) Deuteronomy 6:8:

31 Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

32 Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was their Husband, says the Lord.

33 But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel: After those days, says the Lord, I will put My law within them, and on their hearts will I write it; and I will be their God, and they will be My people.

34 And they will no more teach each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for they will all know Me [recognize, understand, and be acquainted with Me], from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will [seriously] remember their sin no more.

BK, when do you suppose G-d will make a new covenant with Israel (Yakkov)?

2) Numbers 13:38 [sic] (15:38):

"But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings," Malachi 4:2

According to Jewish sages and tradition, this Sun of Righteousness referred to in Malachi's prophecy was understood to be the Messiah, who would have the power to heal who ever touched the tzit-tzit (fringes) on his garment.

In Jesus' day, Jewish men wore a simple tunic both at home and at work. When appearing in public, they would cover their tunic with a large rectangular cloth which draped over the shoulder and fell to the ankles. This cloth was called a tallit and served as protection from cold and rain. Hanging from the end of each of its four corners (wings) was a tzitzit in obedience to the biblical command. The hem of this garment is actually made with fringes, or tassels (called tzitziyot, in Hebrew). These were required to be on the four corners of all clothing of Jewish men, in accordance with God's instruction. These tassels were to remind each Jewish man of his responsibility to fulfill God's commandments in Deuteronomy 22 :12 and Num.15:37-40. In fact, these tassels are tied into 613 knots to constantly remind Jewish men of the 613 laws of Moses, of which there are 365 prohibitions (The "thou shalt not" laws), and 248 affirmations (the "thou shall" laws). The knots also correspond with the ineffable name of God, the unspoken yod-hey-vav-hey, Yahweh.

The fulfillment of this prophecy by Jesus:
One of the best known miracles of healing that Jesus performed was the occasion when a woman who had suffered from a hemorrhage for twelve years came up behind him and touched the hem of his garment. Both Matthew and Mark tell us about this incident below. Mark further tells us, that wherever the Lord went whomever merely touched the border of his garment "were made whole".

Matthew 9:20-22:
20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment: For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole. But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

She was expressing her faith in Jesus as the Son of Righteousness with healing in His wings.

Mark 5:25-34:
And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years, And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse, When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment. For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole. And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague. And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me? And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing. But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth. And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

Mark 6:56:
And whithersoever he entered, into villages, or cities, or country, they laid the sick in the streets, and besought him that they might touch if it were but the border of his garment: and as many as touched him were made whole.


Shabbat Shalom, my friend!


Bar Kochba said...

Let's examine Jeremiah 31:30-33

30 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah; 31 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; forasmuch as they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, saith the LORD. 32 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people; 33 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: 'Know the LORD'; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.

I have found that most often, Christian so-called 'proof' texts are taken completely out of context. Now, there are a few major problems with the Christian interpretation of this verse:

a)"and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: 'Know the LORD'; for they shall all know Me,"
Last time I checked, people still need to be taught to 'know the LORD'. It is rather hypocritical for Christians to be spending billions of dollars a year to convert Jews and others to Christianity while at the same time claiming that G-d has written a new covenant with them and that everyone now knows G-d. If you claim that this refers to the supposed second coming, then this answer is extremely forced, to say that verses 30-32 all happen right away and then verse 33 happens thousands of years later. There is no reason in this verse to suggest a second coming.

"{S} 34 Thus saith the LORD, Who giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, who stirreth up the sea, that the waves thereof roar, the LORD of hosts is His name: 35 If these ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever."

Let's look at these verse in context. The Prophet speaks about Israel's majestic redemption, when Jerusalem will be rebuilt and the exiles will be returned and then G-d will make a new covenant with Israel. The Prophet even clearly says that these "ordinances (will not) depart from before Me". The term "new covenant" would be meaningless unless what Jeremiah meant by it was the renewing of the old covenant, which will thereby regain its full original vigor. The covenant of old is of eternal duration, never to be rescinded or to be superseded by a new covenant (Leviticus 26:44-45). The covenant between God and Israel is frequently referred to as everlasting (e.g., Genesis 17:7, 13, 19; Psalms 105:8, 10; 1 Chronicles 16:13-18).

The Christian position concerning Jeremiah's covenant is the complete opposite of what the Jewish Scriptures teach. Hebrews 8:13 states: "In that he says, a new covenant, he has made the first obsolete. Now that which is being made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away." In stark contrast to this statement, the Scriptures state: "The works of His hands are truth and justice; and His precepts are sure. They are established forever and ever, they are done in truth and uprightness" (Psalms 111:7-8); "The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God shall stand forever" (Isaiah 40:8).

Jeremiah's "new covenant" is not a replacement of the existing covenant, but merely a figure of speech expressing the reinvigoration and revitalization of the existing covenant. The people of Israel possess an old covenant yet a new covenant, truly an everlasting covenant.

Christian 'proofs' are all meaningless in reality. Their essence is 'the Torah sais so-and-so about the Messiah' and 'Jesus did so-and-so', therefore he is the messiah. The problem with that is it all depends on the historical accuracy of the Christian Bible, something that cannot be verified by external sources. Our only sources about Jesus is what Christian historians tell us so the 'proofs' boil down to 'Jesus is the messiah because the followers of Jesus say so'. No one can know if Jesus actually did fulfill these prophecies except by believing Christian historians, which is extremely circular reasoning. In reality, it is known that Jesus did not fulfill the chief requirements of the messiah, namely:

-He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)

-He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)

-He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

-He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

-He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)

and the concept of the second coming has no theological backing.

Think, did Jesus fulfill this? :

"And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore."
(Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28)

PS you ignored about half of my points, namely the eternity of the law, how G-d controls evil and Satan does not exist, and whether the Jews who do not accept Jesus will burn forever in hell.

PPS You claim to reject the pagan aspects of Christianity added by Constantine but many preceded him. Virgin births, wise men, 12 apostles, turning water into wine, demigods, are all pagan stories included in the mythologies of Dionysus, Attis, Osiris, Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster and Mithras. Think about it- a god coming to earth and sacrificing himself to redeem his followers --- how pagan is that?

Deborah said...


You are as bull-headed as I! But I absolutely believe being bull-headed is a good thing... only to a certain point. One thing is sure about our shared characteristic: you and I aren't apt to be manipulated by anyone and we resist anyone's effort to do so! Yes? However, you and I both know that at some point, we do have to humble ourselves for our own sakes as well as for the sake of others - and mostly to be found in accordance with G-d's desire for our character.

I enjoy our debates and will continue in them as time permits, but at this point, I think I need to accept and explicitly state that I'm not trying to get you to accept Yeshua as Messiah. Perhaps you have been trying to get me to return to the Judaism of my fathers, but that won't happen because I won't deny Yeshua is the Messiah. (Notice I didn't say "return to the G-d of my fathers" since you and I both pray to and worship the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.) I do not say that I am a Messianic Jew, nor do I act as one, because I was not raised in Judaism. My family was already well integrated into the Gentile form of the church, by marriage and practice, two generations before I was born. Too bad my ancestors were not allowed to feel comfortable in continuing in their Jewish traditions and in practicing the Torah. The belief that they had to conform to a Gentile form of Christianity is the fault of the institutional church and its typical line of thinking, which is that Jews need to "convert" and shed their Jewish identity. No, Jews were closest to G-d to begin with and nothing changes that position when they believe Yeshua is the Messiah. Acts 15 distinguishes the fact that Gentile Christians had to live by fewer rules than that of their Jewish counterparts, who still adhered to Torah (as attested to throughout Acts, but as precisely depicted in Acts 21:18-21) but understood that G-d had executed the new covenant as spoken of in Jeremiah 31 and that atonement had been made for their sins once and for all. I sure do appreciate that Jews who accept Yeshua as Messiah are now free to exercise their faith in the beauty of Torah according to the B'rit Chadashah and not according to the church's (men's) errant teaching that tells Jews to rid themselves of the practices prescribed in Torah!

BK, I have to laugh when I see time and again that we are 180 degrees out from each other's position. You are so adamant about not trusting in "men and princes" while I watch you defend and trust in men whose teachings are based on their theology. I understand that the Talmud is very important in Judaism, but since it is based on men's interpretation of the Torah, it IS inherently fallible. The Torah is inerrant, but the Talmud is not. Then Judaism tells me and the rest of the world that they're waiting for a man who is not begotten of G-d and is fully human and mortal, but in whom they will place their trust as their Messiah. (Now, that's circular reasoning, BK.) Whereas I trust in Yeshua, who to you is a mere man but to me is "Immanuel", but I don't readily accept the teachings of men based on their theology and remain skeptical of their theology until I can apply enough support from the Tanakh and B'rit Chadashah to accept it. Remember our shared characteristic as I stated at the beginning... I am skeptical and analytical by nature and not easily persuaded... this characteristic causes me to question the doctrines set out by men when they are not fully supported consistently throughout the Scriptures. A person can tell me "the what, the how, the when", but I want to know "the why"! Even when the church claims its doctrines are derived by hermeneutics, I don't give those particular doctrines carte blanche acceptance when I see Scriptures that easily upset the doctrine. That's not to say that my interpretation, or evolving interpretation, is any more correct than theirs, it's just to say that I don't accept doctrines because someone "says so." You've got to know how much I appreciate our debate; you have forced me to take the time to seriously dig into some of the issues that have disturbed me, but I hadn't been able to find the time to analyze so I could put them to rest. Now, I have been able to put some of those disturbing issues to rest while my belief that Yeshua is the Messiah is more entrenched.

There are several different interpretations of the Bible within Christianity, hence the several different sects (denominations). And there are several different interpretations of the Tanakh in Judaism, which divides Judaism into different sects as well. While the differing sects find commonality in observing the more obvious aspects of their respective Bibles, they diverge when it comes to agreeing on the ambiguous aspects.

BK, I did tell you that I would provide the sources of evidence regarding the existence of Yeshua, and I apologize that I haven't had the time to do so. So my rebuttal right now to your statement regarding the existence of Yeshua is, "no, the Christian faith is not based on circular reasoning. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary." You have debated me tooth and nail in refuting the claims that Yeshua is the Messiah. However, you do know that there are Jewish Scholars who admit that Yeshua existed and he did indeed fulfill a lot of the Messianic prophecies except the establishment of the Messianic kingdom and global peace. They, too, deny that Yeshua is the Messiah since he did not establish the Messianic kingdom, but they do admit that he could possibly be the Messiah based on his fulfillment of many Messianic prophecies to date but which remains to be determined at Messiah's coming. I have heard Jews and Jewish Scholars alike say, "When Messiah comes, I will ask to see his hands, and if his hands are pierced, only then I will know I was wrong." The Jewish thought concerning Messiah is: "it's not the 'who,' it's the 'what.'" And since Yeshua didn't establish the Messianic kingdom (the first time he came), he did not establish the "what" - the kingdom and peace. Whereas, those who accept Yeshua as Messiah believe he is the "who" who will establish the "what" at His second coming.

I do sincerely apologize for not being able to get back to our primary debate on your blog, and I apologize that I have frustrated you by my seeming inattention to some of your points and questions, but second to my love and passion for G-d is my passion for my work. It has not been easy to balance my study and debate with you along with the time I feel I need to give to my work. As a matter of fact, I have not given attention to some things in my life to carry on our debate, and that's quite okay! But this weekend, I am heading out of town to go hiking, therefore, I am not able to answer you as thoroughly (with study) as I would like to right now. Aside from my family, you are the second most important person in my life right now as I, too, view this debate as essential to my spiritual growth. Without you, I would not be able to grow as much as I have as quickly as I have. You are a light unto this Gentile - thank you! Please don't feel frustrated at my unwillingness to deny Yeshua is the Messiah; you present awesome argument and applicable Scripture and you have caused me to seriously look at what I do believe and question the veracity of my beliefs.

Finally, to answer your question about Eichmann and the six million Jews... ah, BK, that's not a nice question... I am not G-d. I know what Yeshua said, and it's hard enough to accept what He said and apply it to my dad, my baby brother, and many more of my family members who do not believe Yeshua is the Messiah, but in my heart I cannot reconcile the eternal destination of each of those men and women who were murdered - thank G-d I am not G-d - He is their righteous Judge, not I. As for the precious children, that's a no brainer - G-d does not hold children accountable for their indiscretions. As for Eichmann, I know what Yeshua said, and if Eichmann was sincere, then it's hard for me to accept that Eichmann found forgiveness for what he did! I think his death bed confession is a fable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My heart goes out to former criminals who have sincerely repented and turned from their sins, have been totally rehabilitated and accepted responsibility for their crimes, and who now live righteous lives and believe Yeshua is Messiah. But I cannot find it in my heart to accept that Eichmann repented and asked G-d for forgiveness in the last minutes of his life and then G-d granted forgiveness which redirected his eternal destination in the nick of time. Also, the Bible does tell us that G-d's Spirit will not strive with a man forever, and I believe G-d strongly convicted Eichmann of his sins, especially the sins committed against the Jewish people, and Eichmann did not find it in his heart then to repent, so perhaps G-d's Spirit departed from Eichmann earlier and Eichmann's deathbed confession, if it did happen, was too little too late.

G-d bless you!


Bar Kochba said...

Glad to be useful Deborah! I think that I should explain the Talmud and the Oral Law in this post as you seem to have a very warped and ignorant (no offense) understanding of it.

The Talmud is NOT an interpretation or an explanation of the Torah. It is its companion, given orally on Mount Sinai to Moses. As Ethics of the Fathers tells us, Moses got the Oral Law on Sinai and he taught it to Joshua who taught it to the Elders who taught it to the Men of the Great Assembly. It was passed down orally and forbidden to be committed to paper until Rabbi Yehuda HaNassi, seeing the terrible Roman persecution, realized that unless he wrote it down it would be forgotten. He wrote down the Mishna and 500 years later, the Talmud which expanded on the Mishna, was committed to paper. The Torah is extremely cryptic and does not use superfluous words so it is impossible to understand or to fulfill many of its commandments without the Oral Law. Many heretical sects, such as the Karaites, tried and have disappeared. The Karaites observed their shabbat by sitting in the dark, as the Torah says not to light a fire on shabbat, by staying in the house, as it is forbidden to travel, and by eating cold food. This is the complete opposite of the beauty of the true Jewish shabbat!
I'll give you some examples:
- In Deut. 6:8, the Torah commands us to "bind them for a sign upon thy hand, and they shall be for frontlets between thine eyes." How does one bind them? What is the sign? What do they look like? How are they made? With the Oral Torah,

- You spoke about the tzitzit, fringes but how do you know how to make them? The Torah speaks about making 'fringes' on the corners of our garments but how do you know which garments need them, how they are made...?

- Deuteronomy 12:21 "If the place which the LORD thy G-d hath chosen to put his name there be too far from thee, then thou shalt kill of thy herd and of thy flock, which the LORD hath given thee, as I have commanded thee, and thou shalt eat in thy gates whatsoever thy soul lusteth after." Where in the Torah are the complex laws of kosher slaughter related? And yet the Torah tells us to do it as G-d has commanded!

- Genesis 26:5 "Abraham hearkened to My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My Torahs." The word Torah is in plural- are there more than one Torah? Of course, the Oral and Written!

The Torah gives power to the Sanhedrin, the Jewish courts, to decide binding matters of law.

"8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, even matters of controversy within thy gates; then shalt thou arise, and get thee up unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose. 9 And thou shall come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days; and thou shalt inquire; and they shall declare unto thee the sentence of judgment. 10 And thou shalt do according to the tenor of the sentence, which they shall declare unto thee from that place which the LORD shall choose; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they shall teach thee. 11 According to the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare unto thee, to the right hand, nor to the left. 12 And the man that doeth presumptuously, in not hearkening unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die; and thou shalt exterminate the evil from Israel. 13 And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously." {S}

If the Sanhedrin and the majority of Jews, in Yeishu's time and throughout the ages, rejected him, how can any Jew or even non-Jew dare go contrary to the ruling of the court? If the Jews living in his time did not accept him, we alive over 2000 years later, what extra information can we have over his contemporaries? Yeishu was a Jew and spoke Hebrew but the Christian Bible was written entirely in Greek, to show the intense antipathy the Jews felt for him. The Jews didn't feel that it was necessary to preserve at least one of the Hebrew manuscripts of the Gospel in the TaNaKh! The Torah was given to the Jewish people and the Jews were scholars in it. If the Torah is so clear about Yeishu's messiahood, why didn't the Torah scholars recognize this? Unfortunately, many Jews today are completely ignorant about their faith and the missionaries thrive on ignorance. They missionize to those who known little about Judaism. You will never find these missionaries proselitizing or convincing Jewish Jews, those who know their Torah, like in Meah Shearim, Boro Park or any of the other intensely Jewish places. As for your claim that some Jewish scholars claim that he could be the messiah, I truely doubt this. As I have shown, his geneaology disqualifies him and neither did he fulfill any of the key requirements of the messiah. Without those, the whole concept is meaningless. Keep in mind that the Jewish concept of the moshiach is a redeemer who will bring us back to Israel and rebuild the Temple, rather than a demigod who will take our sins away. That idea never developed in Judaism, despite your claim that it is so obvious from the Torah.

One last point: You laugh at how Jews believe that the messiah will be a mortal man and not the son of G-d. The messiah must be of the tribe of Judah and a descendant of David and Solomon and tribal and familial descent is paternal. If Yeishu had no earthly father, how could be a descendant of David and Solomon and of the tribe of Judah? Christianity's biggest claim disqualifies him! (Irony?!)